Big, Red and Shiny:
Talking Shop with Bad At Sports
by Ben Tanzer, photo by Adeline Sides

The hosts of Chicago podcast Bad At Sports (www.badatsports.com and badatsports.libsyn.com) like to say ‘fuck’ a lot. They argue - with each other, their guests, and anyone else who might be interested. They mock one another. They shamelessly name-drop. They riff on the pro-life Britney Spears sculpture. They call each other ‘cunt,’ and the FCC can’t do a thing about it, so fuck them too.

The BAS crew talks art and artists. They bemoan the fact that, while Chicago is a great place to make art, it’s a terrible place to make any money doing so. They’re funny, impassioned, supportive, and necessary. They remind us not only why art is important, but why public debate over art is as well.

BAS is comprised of Duncan McKenzie, Richard Holland, Amanda Browder, and Kathryn Born, and the show’s name comes from the notion conceit that the fastest way into a career arts is being “bad at sports”. BAS is a weekly podcast on the art scene in Chicago and beyond. As defined by Wikipedia, “podcasting” is:

“The method of distributing multimedia files, such as audio programs or music videos, over the Internet for playback on mobile devices and personal computers…usually the podcast features one type of show, with new episodes either sporadically or at planned intervals…podcasting’s essence is about creating content (audio or video) for an audience that wants to listen or watch when they want, where they want, and how they want.”

And it is the “when they want, where they want, and how they want it” audience that Bad At Sports is aiming for, whether it is artists listening to the show while sanding some wood or writers like myself listening on their ipod while doing the laundry. At the time I connected with them in April 2006, Bad at Sports had been in existence for about eight months and had already developed 35 weekly one-hour podcasts (they are currently at 37). The typical model for the show is one big interview, a mixture of smaller interviews, art show reviews, and topical discussion. BAS has roughly 500 subscribers, with an estimated 1700 listeners--a number they can track based on how many people download the show from week to week.

BAS has interviewed everyone from “art star and punk legend” Raymond Pettibon to Michael Workman of New City, Bridge, and the Nova Art Fair. They have reviewed countless local art shows; they have contributors in London, San Francisco, and New York City; they have appeared live at the Steppenwolf Theater as part of the Third Coast International Audio Festival; and they do reviews for the Boston-based online arts journal Big, Red, and Shiny (the name of which comes from art school lore, Duncan tells me: “If you’re project is not working, make it big, and if it still not working make it red, and if it is still not working, make it shiny.”)

If Bad at Sports’ media presence sounds like it’s growing out of control, that’s because it may be. Then again, as Richard says, “That’s part of what we really enjoy about it. I think we all think it’s out of control, but that’s part of what makes it fun.”

I met up with the BAS crew on the opening night of the 2006 Nova Art Fair, where they were Nova’s official podcasters and planned to do one mini-podcast for each night of the 4-day fair. “We were hanging out with Michael Workman,” Duncan told me, “and Richard [asked]’if I give you a quarter can we be the official podcast of Nova.’ [Workman] said ‘yeah, where’s my quarter?’”

I first connected with Duncan for the train ride to the fair. He’s tall, lanky, and Canadian – a point that seems to routinely come up during the BAS podcast. He’s also a graduate of the School of the Art Institute and a full-time instructor at the American Academy of Art. Duncan deals with the scheduling and administrative tasks of the podcast, though as he explains, “[We] organize everything cooperatively [and focus] on our own individual capacities..” (I would actually cut that last bit)

Nova was held this year at Chicago’s City Suites Hotel on Belmont. When we arrived, Duncan and I immediately ran into Kathryn, who had a big smile and her hair pulled back into a ponytail. She had just interviewed DJ Spooky, who would be performing later that night at Nova’s afterparty.

BAS connected with Kathryn through “The Other Group,” an e-mail discussion group for “Chicago-area artists, collectors, critics, curators, and dealers,” where she and Richard regularly “got into fights,” according to Duncan. And then one day she called, said she did PR, and that she would like to help out.

Richard himself is ensconced on a couch off by the bar where he is intensely focused on his computer and editing that night’s show. Richard is tall with dark hair and heavily tattooed arms. He is wearing a suit because he works by day as a lawyer at the Daley Center providing legal aid to people who are being sued in municipal court. Richard, who has an MFA and JD from University of Wisconsin at Madison, does production work. Everyone on the show does interviews and art show reviews and the show is generally done piecemeal during the week. Everything is then compiled and edited by Richard on Saturday.

Richard and I stepped outside and he said to me, “If we see a show we really hate we don’t review it--people work too damn hard.” Richard also told me that other art critics“…[do] work on the NPR tip, and we’re not [like that], we’re more zine-like. [People ask] Why don’t you take it to the radio? Radio already has it. There is a show on NPR hosted by Richard Lifson (Hello Beautiful). He does his thing, we do our thing.”

Back inside we hooked up with Duncan again. I asked them how the show came about. “Richard and I have a couple of mutual friends…got together and talked about putting on a show.,”said Duncan. “We pitched a show to Michelle Grabner (who among other things runs The Suburban, an artist project space in Oak Park, IL). We started talking about podcasts. One day we said ‘why don’t we do a show.’ [Richard said] ‘you know lots of people. I know production…’ [and] we connected with Chris Cook (the curator) from Sioux City Art Center.”

When asked how BAS has affected their ability to work as artists, Duncan says, “I don’t nearly make as much as I want to. It’s kind of frustrating. There’re so many things you want to do, but we’re dedicated to doing Bad At Sports. We can’t prioritize the same stuff we used to. [It] impacts us all differently. Richard has a real full-time, 40-hour a week job, Amanda has struck a real balance between her life and the show. Richard and I are still struggling with that.”

With that, Amanda walked in. “I think it was the third or fourth show,” Duncan had told me earlier, “and we talked about how we wanted to interview Amanda Brower and then she walked by. We said, ‘why don’t you come up for an interview…’and Amanda became our third host.” Amanda has glasses and is wearing a long scarf that is wrapped around her neck. Like Richard, she has an MFA from UW Madison. Amanda does marketing for the show in conjunction with Duncan and Kathryn and plays more of a support role on the show’s other tasks. She also works at Eye Spy Optical, a Bucktown eyeglass store.

When Duncan briefly moves on with his lovely wife, I stay with Richard and Amanda. Amanda tells me that on BAS “Richard is Simon Cowell,” then quickly adds, “I hate American Idol.” I ask them if they have any favorite guests. “Everybody’s different, Richard says, “some people are funnier than others. Some people’s projects we are more excited about than others.”And what about fantasy guests? Both looked stumped for a moment. Amanda then says, “interacting with guests that are more international,” and Richard says, “Matthew Barney,” before adding, “whoever kind of shows up.”

Amanda continues by saying that the show is a “catalogue of different things that are out there,” and then goes on to say, “what is survival and failure as an artist? Even the famous people here (Chicago) have to work.” Richard chimes in with “we have a humorous approach to this. I find a lot of art journalism insider and boring. One of the things that show continues to be is conversational.” He then adds, “I regularly see shows where I say [the artist] may be great, but I don’t get it. I willingly expose my stupidity. That’s why the show is so great.”

At this point that night’s show has been uploaded and is available to the masses. People are leaving the fair now and getting ready for the after-party. Richard heads home and Duncan and Amanda heads out for pizza and some shots before checking out DJ Spooky’s show.

Later I re-connect with Duncan and ask him whether he thinks there is a conscious, unconscious, or inherent political bent to Bad At Sports? He says, “Although we have tried to stay away from a straight up and overt political bent to the show, I believe that every choice and act has a politic. To be champions for culture demands a politic in some capacity, because it demands that you make a choice about what you foreground and what you choice to leave off to the side. What that politic is I think would be hard to discern.”

I also ask him whether he ever worries that the swearing, fighting, and mockery BAS engages in will cross-over into a shtick?, “I think that shtick is always part of entertainment, that when we tune in to any kind of program we already have a sense of what we will get and that is a function of shtick,” he says. “We play characters a little on the show. We ham up parts of ourselves to try and aid our connections with others and each other. Although I also like to believe that there are always a few surprises in every show. In short, it doesn't bother us because we look at what we are doing in terms of entertainment and not in terms of making high art.”